Though at times it seems like this episode tries to occupy too many places at once, and could have dropped a subplot or two to really focus on Isaac and the Kaylon again, there is still enough character work and humor to make this an enjoyable watch. Even toward the end, my thinking was closer to "How is this all going to wrap up? Isn't the episode almost over?!" than "Geez, how much more of this is there?" That's a good thing.
I also understand that the producers probably didn't want to focus another episode solely on Isaac and the Kaylon, considering that the season premiere already did that. The C and D stories were therefore useful to take breaks from what could have felt like retread territory to some viewers.
And finally, I kept hoping that there would be some opportunity for K-1 to spoof The Good Place's Janet and say something like, "Not a robot." It didn't happen, but it would have been hilarious.
Good.
An intriguing alien civilization, a glimpse into Kaylon history, Isaac continues to socialize, girls hilariously take command, warrior princesses like Xena is back , intriguing violent love - all very well integrated into the broader story line. And it's funny. Topics discussed are certainly not a philosophical revelation or unheard of in the realm of sci-fi but solidly tied together.
There were some very interesting and quite Star Trek-y points presented to us in this episode. The Kaylon origin story was predictable, but fascinating, nonetheless. The way it lead to some sort of bonding between Isaac and Charly (who is still the most annoying character on the show, for me) felt natural and endearing... Unlike doctor Claire's side of things. I didn't like her imposing her own desires on Isaac, forcing him to do something he had expressed no intention in doing (which was, interestingly, kind of a reversed TNG's Data thing). As such, I appreciated the outcome of that plot line, by having Claire admitting she loves Isaac just the way he is, specially considering Isaac had already expressed himself several times in the past (in his own particularly logical and robotic way) that he does love her.
The Janisi story, on the other hand, was the Achiles' heel of this episode, since that plot line started broken right from the start: how could the Union expect to gain their trust though a lie? Bad writing.
As a short but worthy side note, Gordon's "I'll do it!" has got to be one of the finest low-key, out of nowhere, quick fire, funniest jokes to have ever graced The Orville.
Overall, quite a heartwarming episode, regarding Isaac (fuelled by an exquisitely excellent performance by Mark Jackson), giving us a better understanding of the Kaylon's existence and objectives as a species.
So, let me start with some critique: the whole Janisi story line was really bad. And, NO, not because it put women at the center. I don't mind that. But trying to build trust by lying or misleading. When did that ever work out ? The solution wasn't very good either. But Bortus had some cool one-liners.
What I liked was to see into the history of the Kaylon. Now, of course we already knew about all of this but finally seeing it was great. It might be a common theme in scifi, the cration overthrowing its master, but when you see the treatment of K1 you actually find more than a shred of understanding. I was surprised though they showed the killing of the children. Most shows wouldn't go there. Of course the Kaylon then made the false assumption that all biological lifeforms are like that - just like Charlie assumed all Kaylons are evil. But she finally beginns to understand that she's on the wrong side here. And not too soon I might add.
We also delve again into the relationship between Claire and Isaac, two of my favorite characters (to be honest, aside from Charlie there isn't one I didn't like). When the possibillity appeared that Isaac's emotion are there to stay I wasn't sure where I stood. At the moment it felt to easy that he could get them just like that. It felt convenient to introduce another Kaylon with emotions and that we just copy/paste it onto Isaac. But the scene between him and Claire was amazing. Marc is such a terrific actor and it's almost a shame he has to hide his face behind the helmet most of the time. How he switched from an emotinal state to full Kaylon in an instant was great. Now, for the sake of the character I'm glad he can't keep the emotions. It also gave us another great moment when he offered, for all intense and purposes, his life. Because that's what erasing all his memories stands for. He would not be Isaac any longer. That's the definition of love. And for the same reasons Claire rejects his offer. That's the type of stories I love to see. Those moments between characters.
The "stuff" between John and Talla was also cool and funny. Althought I thought the final scene between them was a tad to much.
Overall some weak spots and maybe a bit too much thrown into one episode. But even with those small points of critique it was another great episode.
I really liked this episode... it had some really funny moments, some hugely deep and touching moments.
The writing continues to be good, really hitting the 'What would you do/think about this scenario' challenges. This episode also gave the viewers a swift yet good understanding of Kaylon history. It was well integrated into other storylines and the broken bones was just hilarious and reminded me of one or two relationships that were fun but I knew wasn't the best for my health.
Then there's some very helpful, sincere advice on communication in relationships, something that too few use effectively.
And Charly breaks her PITA attitude.
Just watch the show and enjoy it. I'll say it now, there better be seasons ongoing after this season. They are knocking out of the park this season.
[7.2/10] Good lord, there is too much going on in this episode. I enjoyed some of it. I thought some of it was misjudged. But you probably have three episodes’ worth of material crammed into one episode here, and even the extra-long runtimes of season 3 aren’t enough to full contain it. Let’s take them one-by-one.
The prime story here, I think, is Isaac (briefly) getting his emotion chip, a la Data in Star Trek: The Next Generation. The theme the show’s exploring here is good. What “love” would mean in a romance between a human and an android is a worthy question to interrogate. The relationship between Claire and Isaac is, for my money, the richest in the show. Whether it can exist with a being who technically cannot feel, and whether it’s right to ask someone to change themselves to make you happy are both worthy themes to anchor your story around.
But I have qualms about how “From Unknown Graves” goes about it. On a practical level, the fact that our heroes randomly run into a Kaylon who’s been given empathy after he just randomly ran into a world renowned cyberneticist is a tad contrived, but I’m willing to accept a little contrivance in the name of a good story.
The bigger problem is, frankly, that such a major decision of whether or not to accept the volcanic eruption that is suddenly having emotions is framed in terms of Claire and Isaac’s relationship rather than this being a monumental decision for Isaac’s psyche and well-being. Stories get to be about what they’re about, rather than what we may like them to be about, but it feels churlish to take such a huge, impactful decision about a person and reduce it to how it might impact their romantic life.
Hell, I even have come concerns about the scene between Claire and Grayson about whether it’s okay to ask someone to change themselves for the good of a relationship. There's a ton of nuance to these sorts of issues, which is what I like about The Orville and its Trekkian forbears. Nevertheless, maybe I’ve been bombarded with too many “Loving someone means accepting them for who they are” stories over the years, but I was uncomfortable about how the writers make the leap from “Every relationship involves mutual sacrifice” to “It’s fair to ask someone to drastically change themself for your relationship.”
That said, if you can accept the conceit, I like what they do with Isaac and Claire here. Claire is right to wonder whether she can be truly fulfilled by this relationship by someone who cannot necessarily love her in the way she expects. Isaac’s brief interlude with emotions, while a little overdone, is still moving, with the two of them reflecting a passion that’s as infectious as it is tragic when it disappears. And the idea that even if Isaac can’t feel, his willingness to sacrifice his memory, and with it, his identity, in order to give Claire what she needs in their partnership is a true form of love, is a profound one. There's a lot of moving parts in this story, and it left me wringing my hands at times, but I’m still ultimately on board with what The Orville is trying to get at here.
I wish I could say the same for the LaMarr/Keyali storyline. I like the idea of exploring the fact that interspecies relationships could have practical problems even if the emotional connection is there. But again, from a practical perspective, it seems difficult to believe that there's no some kind of lower-impact sex that could work for them despite Keyali’s extra strength. Even taking that for granted, the show wants to both play it for laughs and play it as a serious emotional hardship, which is a tough line to walk.
Frankly, they both seem mildly immature for not recognizing that their connection is valid and worth holding onto even if they have to manage things differently with respect to their physical needs. I want to give the show some leeway, since I don’t think this storyline is over, but the fact that they treat this as some insurmountable obstacle rather than a practical but understandable thing that’s worth managing because of how they feel about one another weakens this one.
Speaking of oddly-calibrated storylines, the visit from the woman-dominated Janisi people is the most “This should have been its own episode” part of this one. Again, the show can’t pick a tone, since it wants the audience to take seriously the moral dilemma of accommodating this sexist culture in light of the Kaylon threat, but also wants us to laugh at the sitcom-ish antics of Mercer and Malloy having to pretend to be ensigns and haul around the Janisi’s luggage.
Yet again, there's the germ of a good idea here. One of The Orville’s recurring motifs has been the “How much do we tolerate intolerance in the name of practicality” and this fits right in. Likewise, The Orville does a better job than “Angel One” from The Next Generation of exploring sexism through a species that flips Western misogyny around and thereby makes it seem that much more absurd.
Still, the resolution is bizarre. It’s not clear to me why the “common ground” that convinces the Janisi that the Union can be trusted is Grayson explaining that she cheated on Mercer, but they still trust each other. I get the idea that the Janisi practice polyandry, despite expecting the men in their society to be faithful. But there's some underpants gnomes logic to the implicit argument of “I also practice polyandry, and yet my ex-husband and I still trust each other, so you should trust us.” I’m not sure how the one follows from the other, and it feels like this story is missing a beat or two to really complete things. Plus, it seems pretty shitty and antithetical to Federation (if not necessarily Union) values to put on such an elaborate lie to a potential ally like this.
I already mentioned the arrival of Timmis and Dr. Villka. I assume the show is going to keep including them or has somewhere else to take their story. But despite the contrivance of their arrival in the first place, it seems like a pretty big thing to drop into an episode with so much going on. I wish we’d had one episode about the arrival of Timmis the Empathetic Kaylon and his people’s backstory, a follow-up episode about Isaac considering whether to undergo the same empathy chip procedure, and a third episode about dealing with the Janisi (and maybe excise the whole LaMarr/Keyali thing). Then each story might have had time to breathe.
All of that said, Timmis was instrumental in my favorite storyline in the episode. Maybe it’s just the fact that I recently rewatched The Animatrix, and have read my share of Asimov, but I really dug the series of vignettes we get explaining how the Kaylon were mistreated and why they eventually rose up against their masters. They do a good job of helping the audience see, not just hear, how the robots’ budding sentience was squelched and eventually punished by their would-be benefactors. The boardroom scene where the head honchos knew this would happen, and chose to enslave sentient beings rather than save them, in order to protect the bottom dollar, is abominable. And the scenes of the masters torturing their mechanical slaves for fun is downright horrifying.
In brief, it makes you understand the show’s Big Bad better. The Kaylon are still a terrifying, malevolent entity to be up against. But these scenes make them comprehensible, their point of view as understandable as it is wrong, and that’s what good Trekkian stories do.
They also ground the philosophical and grandiose in the intimate and personal. I know some fans have objected to Charly’s Pulaski-esque racism toward Isaac. And candidly, I’m not crazy about the character since I don’t think the performance is very good. But I can appreciate the writing because it gives the character a journey, from resenting every Kaylon because an attack took away the woman she loved, to accepting Isaac because she understands, in a way only Timmis can explain, why his people revolted from bondage in the first place. It’s the sort of mutual understanding and acceptance this subgenre of Trek-like show is built around, and Charly’s apology, mixed with Isaac’s willingness to have her join him in diagnostics, is only so earned and so solid a character beat based on where the two of them started.
Overall, this is a real mixed bag of an episode, if only because several commendable ideas in this one are miscalibrated in the execution, and even the best storylines are crammed in with three or four others plots that don’t especially belong together. There's plenty of good material here, but I wish more of it had been separated and refined.
I have mixed feelings about this one. The Kaylon plot was great, it was nice to see why they're like they are now instead of just vague "the builders mistreated us", as well as some great character work from Isaac/Dr Finn and some development for Charly.
The alliance plot was not great. Their whole plan of lying to the aliens was just straight up dumb and I don't see how anyone thought it was a good idea. It was very clearly written that way so that the plot could happen.
Finally the Lamar/Keyali plot was just kinda ehh. Not great but not bad, just kinda out of place.
Ah Bortus... the serious and deadpan delivery from Peter Macon gets me every time.
I loved watching Grayson order Mercer around. The look Seth MacFarlane has is priceless.
And I was a bit surprised the bitch Charly didn't have some asinine response to the history of the Kaylon. She did take the cowards way out, which wasn't too surprising, though.
Kudos to LaMarr. The man really hung in there. That was impressive.
Mark Jackson is phenomenal. His portrayal of Isaac is perfection. And Penny Johnson gives a fantastic performance, as well.
The stories told have been good. When Bortus complains that they discriminate against men in that society and the others look at him with a face and what you do on your planet with women, what happens with that
Could have done without the Janisi storyline as well as LaMarr's sex injuries storyline. Added nothing to the episode. I guess that was supposed to be the comic relief between the emotional scenes? UGH. Just felt like stuff 5th graders would laugh at. I found the SFX makeup on the Janisi subpar. The scientist looked like a Dr. Who alien (those cat nurse creatures). I am not seeing any real originality as the episodes go on. I am half waiting to see them run into a Borg-like alien this season or get caught up in some interstellar war with scorpion-lilke aliens ala Farscape. It's just way too much stuff from other shows. Doing 3 story lines in this episode waters them down and none of them can be fully realized. They needed to stick to one story line and do it well instead of do 3 storylines half-assed. Almost forgot: Charlie needs to be thrown out out of the air lock soon. Really getting tired of her character. Just my opinion.
This is my favorite episode of the whole series so far. It really benefits from the new extended format of the Hulu episodes. I could watch these characters all day--especially Claire & Bortus.
I love this show. It scratches that old Star Trek itch. I haven't watched the resent seasons of the Trek shows but Orville has been more like the old Trek shows then what the new trek shows have been doing. I've said it before and I'll say it again, This show's more Star Trek then Star Trek lol.
I love the writing, just thought provoking without being preachy. I thought it was a bit odd the displays of love and affection in the restaurant in front of everyone eating, but then these days people tune out such overt displays, so perhaps it’s accurate.
This show is so good at being serious and funny all in one episode
Great one liners from
Gordon “I’ll do it”
Bortus “they are awful” :joy:
Did Talla punch Lamarr in his face :joy: his teeth fell out, shit
By far one of my favorite episodes
Great to finally know the full story on the Kaylons
I dont like that Kelly had to use the cheating story, we really didn’t need to be reminded of that neither did Ed. He really do make work his no1 priority
Isaac about to go balls deep :joy:
(spoiler) It was a weak defense given for the Kalon genocide of their makers. If pain was being delivered to them beyond all reason, why not just deactivate the pain response? Seriously, this was a huge overreaction. It certainly didn’t elevate them morally over those they slaughtered in their sleep.
I hope the series doesn't continue regressing. Yet again, the character of Charly is pushed and, yet again, their presence lowers the quality of the show. They would've been demoted to dishwasher on a back moon long ago - or kicked out of the service. It's out of character for this type of behavior to occur in front of Ed (or other characters) and it to slide. No. Not kosher.
Also, the forced romance betwixt security and engineering is still being pushed, as well. It doesn't work.
On the other hand, the - Oh, the romance between the good doctor and our friendly neighborhood robot. It lifted my heart. As an aside, that dress! The doctor looked so beautiful... as beautiful as the all-too-brief moments between she and Isaac. What a wonderful tragedy.
...and on an appendage temporarily produced by Yaphit, just throw Charly into an airlock already. Seriously, why is this wholly unpleasant character, an ensign, crammed into so many scenes/situations she doesn't belong in? Again, within this universe, Charly would've been court martialed and dishonorably discharged or relegated to scrubbing a backwater port-a-potty long ago. At least at the end she displays a semblance of positive humanity, although it does come across as writers quickly attempting to course correct everything done over many episode in a hot minute after realizing how much everyone despises her (the character, not the actor).
Whoever thought it might be a good idea to start negotiations with a potential ally by lying to them must be stupid. In which universe might it be a solid foundation for an alliance? Would the whole union have to pretend just to appeal to this matriarchical culture? This doesn’t make any sense. If you want equal partners you respect each others culture, it’s not a oneway street. So far season 2 has been great, but here I had complaints just a few minutes in… Also, „whos_ your_buddha, your damn woke and Discovery bashing is getting annoying. Stop it.
The moment Isaac sees Claire in the simulated restaurant through the reset of his emotional capabilities is the most authentic representation of newly realized love I've ever seen. I brought my to tears. Mark Jackson is a forced.
Despite being long the episode doesn't have enough to seriously write something. So I only want to get this off my chest: Writers are so bad at thinking alien... How more human can something be? That Kaylon-builder-species was disgustingly american but even more annoying is that all they could imagine for a machine that develops feelings is wanting to kiss and dance??? A machine that does not even have a mouth and thus wouldn't even have a concept of how kissing feels? ... Come on people the conceptual aspect is a good thing to lean in but please go a bit deeper then typical human romance!
This episode is all over the place. You've got the Kaylon flashbacks, which are cool but don't really make much sense until later, there's this idiotic plot with these matriarchal aliens (hey you know what would be a good idea when trying to forge an alliance with an alien species? Start with a little honesty.), the Kaylon who feels feelings jammed in with Burke and Isaac and Finn, and then you have this contrived storyline with LaMarr and Keyali wedged in the middle there. The connections between the multiple subplots are flimsy at best, and they each have plenty of holes in them.
And the ending… telling them that Grayson was unfaithful to Mercer but still became his first officer is common ground? What does that even mean? Then Isaac is somehow able to instantaneously adapt to having emotions?
Yay, i got to squeeze out a few!
And, about a different part...that takes being mean to Alexa to a whole new level, damn!
This show is so good. They cover whole topics without being woke. Now that’s ingenious. Wish other sci-fy shows like StarTrash Discovery had talented creators like this show.
For a show about space where half the arcs are about alien love and sex. I kinda expected more cheesiness in this episode. I like the Orville, a lot, but a few episodes ago I was just thinking to myself that I was starting to get burned out on all the love stories. But this episode in spite of being exactly more of exactly that. The writing was solid. I was pulling for John and Talla and I think there should have been a flu virus to temporarily ehh whatever point is I wanted it to happen.
I really liked and enjoyed this episode, it is amazing how they made it so easy to watch while creating 3 stories in parallel.
Shout by Shizeeg UnadequatovBlockedParent2022-07-15T12:35:59Z
That Bortus face is golden. :rofl: https://i.imgur.com/YQhde6l.jpg