Justin Tan

Interesting. What are those plotholes? This review is so short and so unexplanative yet it got so many likes.

disagreed. im especially loving donnie and alison this season. not to mention the lesbian drama! and felix is just killing it, im loving everything that he do. and this whole twist at the ending, omg, yes! i cant wait to see what more there is to come c:

im kinda sad that there was so little kira towards the end of the season tho :(

@nancy-l-draper a 7 Nancy???? ...you made Anne cry

@jared

The what it is that we do is completely irrelevant. It's very simply stated that in 3000 years we help them, with whatever is. You're assuming the help we give them has anything to do with technological advancement. It is something entirely specific to us which is obviously unachievable for them without our help. Regardless, it serves no relevance to the outcome of the film. To try and put any weight to interpreting and disavowing the how is pointless. You can't say we couldn't possibly help them because we do, which they are aware of because of non-linear time, which is why they teach us.

Our sticking point is definitely over free will versus determinism. I'm not trying to change your mind, just show a different view point. Considering that yours takes you down a path to dislike the film, I figure it's worth sharing mine which seems to be the polar opposite. If not for you maybe for someone else reading this.

It's clear that time is able to be viewed non-linearly but there is nothing to indicate that it can be changed. Everything plays out exactly as it is seen. Nothing is ever changed from what we are shown. At no point is there a moment that shows a "Do I"/"Don't I". She sees quite a number of visions of the future, which as an audience we have seen more clearly in what is essentially an epilogue acting as a prologue at the start of the film. Some way in she asks "who is the girl?" because she doesn't understand what is happening to her and we realise it's not past. She knows they aren't memories but has yet to understand she is seeing time non-linearly, it's an entirely alien concept. This revelation is in the third act which by this time the world is in complete turmoil, tension between countries is on a knife edge, and she is frantic to get anyone to listen. She doesn't understand anymore of their language, but this glimpse into a period of time leads to her understanding of the nature of their language.

She sees herself at her book launch, which is years in the future (I'll come to that) and sees the meeting with the Chinese General. He tells her she called him and she is confused and you see her struggling mentally over whether it happened. This is the paradox resolving. This moment is the key illustration of the aliens giving us the ability to see time non-linearly thus allowing us to see what it is that we do to help them. We see the result that allows us to ensure that it is an event. The "it happened because we knew it was going to happen and we made it happen" paradox. The General tells her all the information that is required to make what happened happen. The fact that he brought a recording to the gala specifically to play to her, where he specifically came to meet her, is to fuel the paradox. He knows he has to do it, it's obviously been discussed that its what happens, hence the recording. He is elated to meet her and knows what his role is. He leans in to talk just to her, to make every word clear and the nature alone of the words she speaks is so heartrending yet uplifting. There are no subtitles when she is speaking on the phone, it's not for us, it's for him and another moment to connect to his wife. The fact she doesn't know in that moment and the confusion is the paradox of determinism.

If the ability to see time non-linearly had anything to do with choice then it leaves the realm of solely time, and enters space/time and by extension multiverse. There is no indication whatsoever of this, and you make a point in regard to this through personal preservation, that time can be altered and what is observed is just one of an infinite possible eventuality. From a practical point of view, it just wouldn't work as the two aliens standing side by side could be seeing two completely different events and a simple conversation between them would be irreconcilable. From your observation, if time could be changed the aliens wouldn't have opened the door that let the soldiers in to plant the 4 lbs of C4 (which is what it was and really isn't something extraordinary that couldn't be requisitioned from the camp by someone who clearly is high enough rank to be in many of the classified meetings we see him in. There are car bombs going off at present in this ball park) that let the alien die. He died because it is what happened (I made this point in my previous post).

In terms of the linguists involved, Louise is the best with which the US has immediate access to and came to her the moment of first contact (the aliens speaking). They mention her security clearance, so she has been widely regarded for several years and they went to her first. I agree the exposition to do with Farsi was poor and I recall groaning. There is an art to exposition and bad drops are like a slap in the face but sometimes a necessary evil. That one however was hard to swallow. Many thing in the film were explained with only a line or two and implications left to the audience, something that has led to much of the discussion and something I am a fan of. Our views are polar opposites yet it still has me thinking and deepening my own thoughts.

Louise is at the forefront of deciphering the language, she was the first to make a breakthrough. Ultimately, she maybe an amateur of their language, but she is a master of language. It's shown that information between countries is not completely open, but are being shared, and a number of times early on we see that none of the other researchers are making any headway and throughout they a far behind her. China deceivers the word 'weapon' but are reactive and make no consolation that it may mean 'tool'. The fact that Louise is more open to interpretation of language, some dead, is shown right in the first meeting when they trying are recruit her. Louise only needs to understand enough of the language to comprehend the nature of it to get the Chinese General to stand down at the moment she does. She doesn't need to know the ins and outs of the language/ability, her full understanding comes years later (as shown with her book), she just needs to comprehend enough of the implications to be able to shut things down.

The other linguists that are present at the US base are doing grunt work; none of them are working on the bleeding edge with her. She has the best understanding in the world. It's not that she is 'special', she is the best at what she does in this case. It's discussed a number of times that if everyone was more open they would be making immeasurably more headway with deciphering it. This mistrust is the heart of the dramatic tension throughout the film. You mention that Louise and Ian are in no danger, never threatened. That’s because the aliens are of no threat to us. We are the threat to both the aliens and each other. You said that there is a lack of emotional reaction to the aliens when in fact the world goes into meltdown. The reaction of the population is driving the fear of the governments. Our fear of the unknown is the tension that is continuously escalating and the race against time is for Louise to understand before we do something irrevocable with unknown consequences. Remembering at this point it isn't clear the exact nature and mechanism to explain the alien’s motivations. We are the threat, we are the tension, we are the urgency, not the aliens at all.

But it's going to work itself out. Because it does. But we don't understand that yet. This is a film that hindsight of the audience can muddy the acquisition of knowledge by the characters. There is a lot that is to be read into sometimes a few lines of dialogue and visual cues. One of these in particular is in your comments regarding the relationship between Louise and Ian.

Chronologically within the main timeframe, the arrival and departure of the aliens, there is no romantic link between Louise and Ian. You can't overlay what we see of the future onto the characters at this point. When Ian says let’s make a baby it is a number of years past the departure of the aliens at which point Ian says that meeting her was a highlight of it all. That is the absolute first inkling that something will eventually spark between them. Again, we have to distinguish between what is in our understanding of that 'now' and what we know is going to happen.

The key signature to the timeframe of all of Louise’s/Ian’s/Hannah’s future is the overly showing of when she is and isn't wearing a wedding ring. When Ian asks let’s make a baby she is dancing holding a wine glass and we see the ring. They that have dated, moved in to her house together, married, lived happily and then he asks and she is clearly ready. It's not a hack mending of a gap, it’s a clear passage of time shown through a simple mechanism. All of the future is grounded between the age of Hannah and the ring. She says in the 'present' I know why my husband left as within the confines of the filmmaker’s intent we work out Ian is the father. She is just coming to terms with reconciling the what she is seeing is the future when she works out Ian is the father and what it is she does to split them up. The key to Ian leaving was that he thought she had a choice and couldn't accept that she had Hannah knowing what was to come and subjected them all to the pain. She lives with the knowledge of their future, it's not a choice. Ian says that meeting her was the highlight of it all and she looks at him knowing the journey they are about to take because she has seen it. It's not about her making the choice, there is no choice, the only conciliation is knowing she can endure it, but is sad he can't The publication of her book and the gala (at which Ian isn't there) are post separation which means it took years for her to be able to document what she is still clearly most eminent. The events of departure and Louise’s future we see are separated significantly. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that the point that Hannah dies is 20 years after the aliens depart as we have no clear point in time as to her conception or the exact age she dies.

I don't see determinism as being a boring premise because without audience hindsight we don't know that is, to me, what we are seeing. It's akin to watching The Sixth Sense a second time. Watching Arrival a second time we can coherently piece together the exact timeline of Louise’s future and for me that is going to be a real joy of personal non-linear time from what I know now to what I knew then. Maybe you see that as opportunistic hack on my behalf but piecing together the nuances of that timeframe is what I'm most looking forward to on my second viewing.

I don't see that determinism has anything to do with people’s poor decisions. People are flawed. It's easy to look at someone else and apply your own ideas of what you would do in a situation, tenfold when it's a movie. I see that everything that happens in the films world is from mankind’s failings and nothing to do with the aliens. We are our own worst enemy. That’s the message of the film. If it were to happen in real life right now... seriously look at the world... we would implode. Which is exactly what they show, though personally I think we would be far worse. I think the "District 9" etc. are a utopia compared to what would happen right now. But I digress...

You said that you want the character’s actions to mean something. They absolutely do. Knowing the outcome doesn't change the motivations, it validates them. Again, our hindsight on the film bares a significant factor when we either watch this film again or look back upon it.

If we knew determinism, if it is as I postulate was what non-linear time allowed us to see, was known from the beginning then yes it takes away the drama. But we don't, or in your case see it completely differently. It's a bit like watching a prequel. I'm champing at the bit to see Rogue One. I know how it ends because of Star Wars, but it doesn't detract from the drama of the film as it stands alone.

But as we have both said, it comes down to interpretation. Personally, I like that it generated any kind of discussion positive or negative as it's been too long since I could sink my teeth into a film. Maybe a second viewing will knock half of this on its ass. I hope not but I'm fully open to it and can't wait to see it again as soon as I can.

[once again, far out that maybe the longest post I've written on Trakt. Too tired to self-edit and second guess myself. If anyone made it this far I applaud your constitution as I've been waning the last few paragraphs. I'm hoping where I'm coming from is vaguely alluded to and if someone takes something from it, even if its staunchly against it, it solidifies your own views and as such mission accomplished. Thanks]

@stormsm I feel you on this subject but I don't think that this film is an intelligent movie. It is a well shot movie, so suspenseful and kinda thoughtful that what humans can do if they deal this situation. But the third act is a disappointment for me unfortunately. I care about "why they are here and what they are gonna do" thing but it didn't me satisfy. The film goes another subject.

Also, people can watch both Marvel movies and Sci-fi movies. If I can watch an X-Men movie, it doesn't mean that I cannot watch this movie. I see your point but there are other peoples like me takes this argument differently. Thanks...