Well, Commodore Decker was a bit of a maniac, wasn't he?
Loved the design of the planet killer, just a bit old crazy thing.loading replies
@lefthandedguitarist It's funny, but from the verbal description, I had in mind pretty much what was later displayed for the doomsday ship. It is so iconic and duplicated that it is almost the default design for a device like that.
Shout by LeftHandedGuitarist
I fell asleep. I think it turns out that the dog did it. You're welcome, I just saved you from having to watch this one.
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@lefthandedguitarist - LOL, read this too late. I ended up watching it in two installments and yup, this one is exceedingly boring.
An episode that consists of all set-up for the next part means that it feels like nothing really happens here. On the other hand, it's not the worst thing to just spend time with these characters we've gotten to know so well. The main focus here is on Worf and Data, the latter of whom has the most interesting story. His attempts to start dreaming unlock some lovely moments and some creatively shot sequences - I really loved the bird's POV shot that swoops outside of the Enterprise. Brent Spiner again plays Dr. Noonien Soong, this time without a load of prosthetics and does a really nice job of it.
Worf's story is a intriguing start that doesn't get paid off too well in this first part. Going to Deep Space Nine is a nice treat (and seeing it in HD on the blu-ray is lovely) and Worf's inner struggle is fairly compelling.
So, despite all the quite lovely things that happen in this episode it just feels like it's a whole lot of people sitting around and thinking. There's no real excitement, despite a wonderful guest appearance from an unrecognisable James Cromwell and even Dr. Bashir showing up.
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@lefthandedguitarist I quite liked the Data story as its own thing here and would've been happy for that to get left for quite some time as kind of an active mystery.
Better than the first part, things just flow better here. The character of Rain begins to work and there's good interaction between the Doc and Starling, as well as Paris and Tuvok. In fact, it might pretty much be the Doctor who saves this whole story. The addition of a portable holographic emitter for him is going to allow his character to grow, and I like the fact that it referred to his memory loss in the 'The Swarm' (which, chronologically, should come right before this episode) and explained that he's recovering and gives us a possible reason as to why he was barely in part 1.
Ed Begley Jr. does do a great job as the bad guy, despite how low budget his entire business appears (he just has the one henchman working for him).
The whole sequence with Torres and Chakotay getting captured by gun-toting American survival fanatics was painful and moronic. And no explanation as to why bullets passed through the Doc.
If the 29th century has "time police" to sort out people they detect aren't in their correct time, why have they never shown up before whenever Star Trek characters accidentally travel to the past?
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If the 29th century has "time police" to sort out people they detect aren't in their correct time, why have they never shown up before whenever Star Trek characters accidentally travel to the past?
Because they didn't need to. Space and time are very big. Not all temporal events are going to actually have noticeable/measurable repercussions and some sort themselves out on their own. Voyager being in the 20th century and very far from where they were supposed to be would have a massive impact on the timeline.
Love the idea behind this episode, but the final product has never really worked for me. It often feels like it's trying too hard and most of the humour never quite hits the mark. There are some great in-jokes sprinkled in there, though. I get the feeling that the cast and crew had a lot of fun making this and it was mainly done for their own amusement.
Most problematic is that Martin and his alien friends are just boring subjects for a story. Their whole schtick is repetitive, both in this episode and when combined with their previous one, and they are so bland. Martin himself at least has an okay comic-relief factor, but while I do sympathise with him I also find him difficult to really like.
The best thing in it is the Wormhole X-Treme parody itself, with the fourth-wall breaking end sequence finally landing the humour that the episode was going for.
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@lefthandedguitarist I unfortunately saw the top half of your rating before starting the episode, as kind of a spoiler-ish thing like "oh, this one's not going to be very good", and by halfway through I was wondering what the heck you had been smoking because it's absolutely hilarious… and then the last third, especially, killed it. I understood. :sweat_smile:
Ugh, such a difficult one to rate. It's all over the place, with perfect 10 moments and head-scratching 1 moments flipping back and forth until, sadly, the actual story drags it down. :frowning:
Naomi's plot is kind of uninteresting compared to the others...
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@cirdec94 That's a polite understatement. It really highlights the persistently weakest elements of the show. I know they will pass, historically, but they should really be ironing this into steady quality by now. Otherwise they will lose chunks of the metrics they need to continue expanding budget and production value, which spoiler we REALLY want for an expansive sci-fi experience, pun intended. Shout out to Thomas Jane for directing this episode and broadening his talents.
Absolutely superb, and a fantastic follow up the equally great 'Touchstone' from season 2. This episode takes you on a ride and manages to make you question whether your really knew O'Neill at all. I loved it when Stargate went full intrigue because the characters were set up well enough to take it to all sorts of unexpected places.
And again, this uses the shows history to build a new story from existing parts, which is so cool. We go right back to Tollana from a few episodes back and use their "no technology" stance to take us down a completely different path. Maybourne and his secrets that were laid in 'Touchstone' begin to be revealed and Jack is even able to use the events of '100 Days' as a reason to help him with his plans.
It manages to keep O'Neill's intentions pretty well hidden, even going as far as to potentially hurt his friendship with Daniel in quite a harsh scene. One thing that always stuck out to me was that in his conversation with Carter about "now I'm acting like myself", his performance really brought me back to the original Kurt Russell version from the movie. Nice.
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@lefthandedguitarist Was it just me who thought the ruse was supremely obvious? Not the exact target, per se, but the fact that Jack was playing a role?
The way this episode brings together a bunch of characters from different previous episodes feels so rewarding. That's the thing that used to always make Stargate stand out so much for me compared to much of the Star Trek shows, the sense of continuity and consequences. It's great to see Ska'ara again (I wish the show had used him more) and the return of the Nox with Lya. Plus, we get to see the cool new Tollan homeworld which looks suspiciously like a university campus! It works, though.
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@lefthandedguitarist In terms of continuity, DS9 was the Star Trek we deserved. Nearly the entire canon aside from that one series, though… Yes, unfortunately there are a lot of Reset Buttons in Trek.
There was enough here to hook me in to continue watching. It suffers from the tired YA tropes and some truly awful exposition in the dialogue, but I like the characters and most of the actors seem decent. Not easy to understand much of what was going on but it settled down. There's a lot of room for improvement, but it already feels head and shoulders above the other Netflix teenage fantasy shows.
I found that I couldn't take the name Pekka seriously.
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@lefthandedguitarist xD same for the name Inej; in French it sounds like "It snows"
Review by LeftHandedGuitarist
EDIT: I changed my mind. Looking back, I liked this show more than I say I did. The cast are fun and likeable, even if I never fell in love with their characters.
Hey, everyone, I made it! I got through my least favourite Star Trek show for the first time after numerous attempts. And I have to say, I didn't completely hate the journey.
But, this is how it ends? That's it? What a thoroughly disappointing way to finish things. The finale introduces some random new plot elements that really don't work and just come out of nowhere (Tuvok's disease and the Chakotay/Seven relationship - which did have some hints but they were completely from Seven's imagination, so this feels jarring), and worst of all we get no proper resolution to so many things.
Voyager arrives back home and there's zero emotional payoff; we don't get to see their welcome back or any reunions with family and friends. Tom's father is on the screen when they make it back and doesn't acknowledge his son sitting right there. What's going to happen to the Maquis crew members now? B'Elanna gives birth but we don't get introduced to the baby or even find out what they name her. Seven asks to have the Doctor perform the procedure on her which will "unlock" her ability to feel the full range of emotions, but we don't even know if he actually does that. In just the previous episode, the Doctor declared his love for Seven but that's not addressed at all.
Instead, the final episode decides to spend its time on another dull Borg story that feels like it lacks any impact. Voyager has defeated these guys so many times now that it feels pointless for them to keep encountering them (and this time they have convenient future tech). Yes, it's nice to have Alice Krige reprise her role as the Borg Queen, but the episode doesn't actually do anything interesting with her. The entire bullheaded mission of future Admiral Janeway is dubious at best and depicts her as extremely selfish.
The entire show was a missed opportunity to do something interesting, and it chose to stay as safe as possible all the way through. Any time the series did do something good, it was forgotten about and not mentioned again (remember when Seven's nanites were discovered to be a cure for death? Sure would have been useful to do that again. Remember the previous episode when the Delta Flyer's communications were destroyed so Janeway transmitted a message through the deflector? Why hasn't that been used in the uncountable times communications were down?).
The show had some really good characters, though. The Doctor was the standout by a long way and the introduction of Seven was a good move. Captain Janeway is inconsistent in her actions and motives, but Kate Mulgrew was never less than fantastic in the role. I just wish everyone had some evolution across the show. Harry, Tom, Tuvok, Neelix, Chakotay: they really never changed their personalities (and this even applies to the Doctor and Seven). There's an argument that everyone became a better person, but I say that nothing about them actually evolved. The fact remains that I just don't care about characters like Tuvok or Chakotay, because they never felt like real people.
Still, it is an easy and entertaining watch and in the end it is Star Trek and delivers a lot of the storytelling and universe that makes me feel cosy. I just probably won't watch it again (hmm... maybe if it's given an HD upgrade and released on blu-ray). I know the show has a lot of fans and if you like it then that's great, but I don't think I'll ever quite understand why.
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@lefthandedguitarist Still, it is an easy and entertaining watch and in the end it is Star Trek and delivers a lot of the storytelling and universe that makes me feel cosy. I just probably won't watch it again (hmm... maybe if it's given an HD upgrade and released on blu-ray). I know the show has a lot of fans and if you like it then that's great, but I don't think I'll ever quite understand why.
I can get 100 % behind that. The HD upgrade will probably never happen since it is too expensive. Same with DS9. I don't know how many times I've now watched Voyager but it must have been at least 4-5 times over the years. Like I did with all the other shows up to Enterprise.
Sadly, every time I watched VOY I liked it less while with the rest it's the other way around.
Stargate did clipshow episodes, a money-saving measure that was an unfortunate necessity for many American television shows at that time. They are never fun to watch. This franchise did at least try to make the episodes as interesting as it could, though. In fact, the Stargate clipshows could sometimes be some of the more important ones for pushing the overall story forward. 'Politics' definitely falls under that description, making it a necessary watch.
Outside of the clips, the episode is actually fantastic. The introduction of Senator Kinsey gives us a really loathsome villain who is a lot of fun to watch, especially with all the verbal sparring that accompanies him. The SGC become ever more desperate as they attempt to defend the Stargate program to a person who has already made up his mind. It's a one-room episode that works really well, and the introduction of more political elements to the show opens things up for some good future conflicts.
But, I just can't excuse the use of all the clips from previous episodes. They are also taken from a number of the more awkward episodes, making them even less appealing. Well, at least we can be thankful that they didn't use anything from 'Hathor', I guess.
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@lefthandedguitarist Given the dramatic impact of this episode's events, I wish it had been objectively better. I'm sure you know as well as I do that it's possible to tell a good sci-fi story without having to leave your home base/ship/whatever, but this ain't it chief. They should have asked the DS9 or Voyager writing teams for advice :joy_cat:
A truly great episode which starts as one thing and then becomes something very different. This gives us a little bit of everything, though it's mostly really meaty intrigue and mystery. The inner workings of the Stargate program and other elements of the US government really come to the fore here. I remember watching this in the '90s and being blown away at the revelation that the second Stargate was secretly being used. Plus, it casually throws in callbacks to several previous episodes along the way.
But alongside the twisty reveals and fun, I love that this is a great character piece for almost everyone involved. General Hammond gets a lot to do here and it continues to reveal more of the warmer side of his personality. And of course, the love-to-hate-him character that is Maybourne pops up again and is simply great (even if he's still not the character he will become).
Any criticisms I have come in the form of the people of Madronas. The actors are quite frankly awful and really spoil things. Is the old man supposed to be blind or confused or constipated? It's hard to tell.
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@lefthandedguitarist I agree. As irritating as he is in the early episodes, Maybourne is a great part of the series.
And it's so odd that the leader of the Madronans comes back later on as Moros and performs so much better. Makes me wonder if this was an off day or intentional for the character.
This is one of the best episodes at showing there is always more going on than what we see of the day to day of the SGC. That there are plans going on behind the scenes and helps highlight the reasons we love our heroes and love to hate the seedy politicians and their attack dogs.
Once the body-swapping stuff begins it manages to become more fun that it initially suggested it would be. I was impressed that Dan Butler managed to work some of Robert Duncan McNeill's mannerisms as Tom into his performance. But overall, this episode doesn't really do anywhere near enough with the premise. The swap into Janeway seemed a little bit nonsense to me, and it's all wrapped up easily after that. There's some godawful exposition in the dialogue at points, too.
It's kind of odd now to see Paris acting like a brat (even before he gets swapped with Steth). Looks like he's suffering from depression, which the episode didn't really bother to address. That would be something I'd like to see.
Did I miss something, or did the coaxial warp drive work fine after Tom added his carburettor? Are the Voyager crew ignoring a perfectly good method of getting them home faster again?
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@lefthandedguitarist Hey, it's Voyager. They didn't bother explaining why Tom all off a sudden is unhappy. Why should they bother explaining about that propulsion method ?
I can't take much more of Chakotay's akoo-chee-moya bullshit.
This feels like it's all been done before, and from the moment Chakotay first "wakes up", you're expecting him to still be in the dream. His entire plan relied on being able to see Earth's moon - that's pretty dumb since he's lost in the Delta Quadrant.
Extremely weak aliens, too.Tuvok sure shows a lot of emotion (mostly embarrassment) for a Vulcan, and I'm disappointed that Janeway again shows her lack of leadership ability by plunging headfirst into a lethal situation (the warp core breach) with no regard for the consequences.
In what world is being kissed by Seven of Nine considered a nightmare? Harry is weird.
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@lefthandedguitarist I so enjoy reading your comments after writing mine because more often than not we're on the same page.
If you can get over all the quite terrible stuff involving the main cast, this episode is all about John Rhys Davies and his great performance as Da Vinci. He brings a huge amount of class to proceedings, and I really enjoyed all of his interactions with Janeway. I have to admit that I did struggle to keep all my attention on the episode, though. It's never particularly exciting, and all the equipment (including the MAIN COMPUTER?!) being stolen at the start is so stupid.
A bit of a coincidence that the flying machine just happened to be on top of the hill where Janeway and Da Vinci transported to, no? How long had Leonardo been on the planet before Voyager got there?
The scene with Harry and Seven felt unfinished, as well as the subplot involving the Doctor being frustrated at being trapped in sickbay.
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@lefthandedguitarist >How long had Leonardo been on the planet before Voyager got there?
Janeway's log entry says it took them ten days to find the stolen equipment. But he sure did a lot of things in that amount of time.
A standard, average episode made a bit more interesting by the ever reliable Leland Orser. The Seven/Harry stuff was mostly enjoyable too. Annoyingly, it looks like the B'Elanna/Tom relationship is still moving at a snail's pace despite what's happened (I'm a bit surprised that it's only been "3 days" since they declared their love for each other).
Orser's character is pleasingly creepy and actually quite intimidating at times, even though the script pushes things way over the top. An impressive child-like performance which sells it. The electrical cable that finally does him in is telegraphed very early on and a little too obviously.
I like the suggestion that Seven has a sense of humour. And it's kind of hilarious that Harry STILL doesn't get laid even when its offered to him on a platter. This can be regarded as a very inappropriate scene, but I think that Seven is playing with him and very much in charge of the situation.
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@lefthandedguitarist >but I think that Seven is playing with him and very much in charge of the situation.
Oh, she most definitely is !
Neelix: Darn it, I'm going on this away team and I just can't get Tuvok to respect me.
Tuvok: I do not respect you, Neelix.
Neelix: But look, I can save our lives in an emergency.
Tuvok: I now respect you, Neelix.Could this episode be any more formulaic? Also, that's one of the worst space battles I've ever seen, Voyager just sits there and gets shot.
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@lefthandedguitarist > Also, that's one of the worst space battles I've ever seen, Voyager just sits there and gets shot.
I've noticed that a lot how often they just tell what is happening instead of showing it. Were they tight on budget ?
Quite unimpressed with this one. I make fun of Voyager for using the reset button, but this episode ACTUALLY RESETS EVERYTHING AT THE END. It makes it all rather pointless, as none of it ever happens. Which is a shame, because the Janeway/Paris pairing was working quite well, and they had a lot things to teach each other. I feel more on Tom's side in that the Prime Directive should never apply when an entire planet is going to be wiped out (this was touched on not long ago in the TNG episode 'Homeward').
A thinly veiled criticism of nuclear power is all fine and well, though no real points are made other than "it's too dangerous". The alien civilisation they encounter (did they even both to not make them look human this time?) all wear the terrible same clothes, and the forced friendship story between Tom and the little boy was quite horrible to watch.
Kes's weird telepathic abilities are quite cool, but since everything resets I guess she doesn't remember anything about what it all means.
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@lefthandedguitarist to be fair, in this instant, it actually didn't happen. Or wouldn't. Or whatever. So in that regard it is, at least theoretically, correct.
But I get your point and you're certainly right about them disregarding what happened before a lot. They took the episodic storytelling to far.
Our first hints at where Odo may come from, and our first time hearing the word "changeling". Of course, it all turns out to be completely untrue and given the nature of The Dominion that we learn in later seasons, it's kind of surprising that Croden knew nothing real. It basically boils down to the fact that none of that had been written or even thought of at this point. Still, seeds are planted.
It has a fairly emotional ending and some really beautiful cinematography during the scenes in the vortex, but this is overall a bland episode. Quark's scenes are great and its a good look at Odo as a character, but it's overwhelmed by all the poor alien designs and one-dimensional characterisations given to them. Rom still has the mean streak to his personality from 'The Nagus', given that he seems to relish the thought of Odo dying.
First contact with Gamma quadrant species sure isn't going well so far.
Odo getting knocked out by a rock - or even feeling any pain from it - makes zero sense. Somebody wasn't thinking that through.loading replies
@lefthandedguitarist its the "second" hint, since on the first episode it was told that combat pilots found him near the current position of the wormhole!
It's hilarious how seriously the characters take things. I guess we are all guilty of it at times when we can't see the big picture, but damn teenagers take it to extremes.
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@lefthandedguitarist Just silly if u ask me to make such a fuss xD
Shout by LeftHandedGuitarist
I was worried after the sharp turn last week's episode took, but this was MUCH better. Although, I really wanted to see exactly when/where Georgiou ended up.
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@lefthandedguitarist - We will, if the Section 31 show gets off the ground. :)
This episode was huge and felt like a turning point for me. And it really managed to give me feels!
- It's so nice to finally have some focus on the crew outside of Burnham and whoever happened to be the captain. We opened with Doctor Culber's medical log and it was very welcome. I'm also really appreciating that we are now spending downtime with everyone and just getting more windows into their worlds.
- And Hugh himself had some fantastic scenes as he began to understand the crew's mental health needs. This is a fascinating topic that I am delighted the show seems its going to explore.
- I found the dinner scene surprisingly upsetting to watch. It was written and performed extremely well, and turned from good to bad so quickly. We didn't need much to start feeling connected to this crew, and this season is doing it right so far. I'm feeling especially bad for Kayla, but the Tilly/Stamets coldness was unexpectedly sad (which made their connection at the end all the more rewarding).
- I'm relieved that Kayla's issues are nothing to do with Control.
- The computer's change, brought on by the integration of the sphere data, seems to be leading us directly into the 'Calypso' Short Trek from a couple of years back. Very intriguing!
- It was nice to revisit Trill, especially as a lifelong DS9 fan, and this show doesn't seem to have changed much. It's a shame that they turned hostile so quickly, but I loved Burnham's very direct response to it. I also found myself getting emotional once Adira re-emerged from the pool and was able to speak her names. I thought it was beautifully done.
- Adira herself is endearing and easy to like, but I feel like she's maybe connected with Discovery and her crew a bit too quickly.
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@lefthandedguitarist
Yes to most of this!
I was also very concerned that Detmer's behaviour was Control's doing. I'm still not completely convinced it's only trauma, but I'm a skeptic soooo lol shrug we'll see.
The way they have been interweaving the shorts has been glorious to behold (sure it's not without flaws but I'm too happy to have a Star Trek series that works to nitpick).
Totally missed the Trill! It's an odd sense of nostalgia, unearthing memories of DS9 as well...Dax.
I dont think Adira connected to the crew too quickly. As an orphan, I imagine it would have been an acquired skill to discern who and what to trust. In Adira's own words "Things are pretty weird out here, but human connection is at least one thing I understand." I'm thinking it's more than just human connection, Adira is likely an empath, which would explain why it was easy to bond with the symbiont.
what twist? I watched this and it was incredible but I didn't notice a twist.
Next season must be Star Trek Discovery in the future. Now they have been erased from the (future/past/present) of this time. They're like Moses. They've had their names stricken from all the temples never to be spoken again. The only way to maintain the Prime timeline is to jump Discover past the end date of Voyager.
The battle while exciting went a little too Michael Bay for me. I liked the Klingons showing up in their properly designed D7 heavy cruisers.
I would have rather Georgiou been placed in charge of Section 31 but I guess it would make it hard for her to have field adventures in her new show.
Early predictions that the red angel were correct. They disappeared the spore drive. Got rid of the holo communicators. Grew hair on the Klingons. Gave them proper ships. Now if they could only fix the space goblin look. Finally, they shaved Spock.
A few more tweaks and this will almost look like Star Trek instead of a fan fiction show created by a crazy billionaire.
All in all, for this show it was a great finale.
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@onlime
She didn't eat Saru's ganglia. They were from some other Kelpien. She was more like space Hitler granddaughter. The Terrain Empire had been around for a long time before her. I enjoy anti heroes. I like the Star Trek setting. I think I'll like them together. People said the same thing about DS9. How can it be Star Trek? It was an awesome series. Sisko did things that no other Captain would have dared to. Lie, cheat, murder and destroy the atmosphere of an inhabited planet, to name a few. In the Pale Moonlight, where he does some of that stuff is considered by many to be either the best or one of the best episodes of any Trek series.
That was DS9.
THEY WENT TO DS9.
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@lefthandedguitarist Ahhhhh, I went back and caught it! No other Cardassian station in Federation hands -- gotta be DS9! So cool!
Roberta Williams is my heroine. I wish this had dived more into the early Sierra (and LucasArts!) adventure games of the 1980s.
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@lefthandedguitarist I would have loved to see more of Sierra in this episode. They didn’t even mention the Quest games except for a few shots at the end.
Parts of this took me right back to playing TIE Fighter.
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@lefthandedguitarist And, did you ? Great game together with X-wing. Loved to play those. Do they even run on Win 10 ?
The music in this one increased the anxiety and emotion to a huge degree. It was like a Trent Reznor/Atticus Ross Star Wars score at times! Honestly, it was making my heart thump.
I knew Order 66 from the perspective of this show was going to pack a punch, and it was as powerful as expected. Did Rex shed a tear as he tried to resist? Ahsoka's escape was maybe all a bit contrived but was also true to her creative nature. Mace Windu pointedly addressing her as a "citizen" was really cold.
I did love the way she subverted expectations upon rescuing Maul, and then telling him no they were not going to work together - you're just my diversion.
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@lefthandedguitarist Did you notice that Ahsoka´s feeling about Mace´s fight with Lord Sidiuos has the original audio
from Film???? Cool!!! :)
Guess I'm the only one who thought Tessa Thompson's acting was stale and boring... Much like the rest of the episode.
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@mansemat I don't know what, but something is off this season. 3 episodes into the thing and I still don't feel it. I hope it gets better.
I have to be honest, I really don't understand the factions and politics present here. Am I not paying enough attention, or is the show doing a poor job of explaining?
My only impressions so far:
- OPA: some kind of terrorist group. Bad.
- Belters: Gangs, criminals, violent, corrupt. Bad.
- Earth: elite, ignorant of others plight. Bad.
- Mars: isolationist, seen as a threat by everyone. Bad.Surely this can't be right?
However, this episode was better for characters. People really seem to dislike each other but at least there was some reasoning behind it this time.
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@lefthandedguitarist that's kinda the point. You can't attribute simplistic moral reasoning as good and bad. Everyone has shades of grey, like actual people in real life.
